The era of speculation-driven expectations is over.

Guests: Brandon Millman, CEO of Phantom; Luca Netz, CEO of Pudgy Penguins

Host: Laura Shin

Podcast Source: Unchained

Original Title: Companies Are Racing to Bring People Onchain. Who Is Best Positioned?

Air Date: August 21, 2025

Key Takeaways

Cryptocurrency is entering a critical phase in the race for mass user adoption.

In this episode of Unchained, Brandon Millman, CEO of Phantom, and Luca Netz, CEO of Pudgy Penguins, come together to discuss who will win over the next 100 million crypto users.

Will it be product-driven startups leading the charge? Or will Web2 giants like X and Meta dominate the market? Alternatively, could crypto-native applications like Phantom emerge as the ultimate frontrunners?

From the competition in payments to the battles among trading platforms, and the ambitious vision of the "everything app," the guests analyze where real value will accumulate and explain why the "easy money era" for entrepreneurs is over.

Highlighted Insights

• Coinbase should focus on becoming the "JP Morgan" of crypto.

• The nature and purpose of trading are undergoing significant changes, increasingly resembling entertainment or thrill-seeking activities.

• The true winners will be those who can attract the next generation of users while effectively navigating the evolving onchain landscape.

• Companies that master the latest trends in onchain finance, innovate with an "onchain-first" approach, and seamlessly integrate with the new generation's attention economy are poised to become the biggest winners in this space.

• In the crypto industry, the barriers to entrepreneurship are incredibly low, yet the potential to create billion-dollar companies is remarkably high. The future will be an era where top entrepreneurs continue to dominate, widening the gap between themselves and others as competition intensifies to determine who truly stands out.

• The era of speculative hope is over. The focus now is on leveraging hyper-financialization and global payment networks to build disruptive technologies that genuinely change the world, rather than relying on narratives or stories that promise change without delivering it. This will be an era of result-driven success, not speculation-driven success.

• As crypto regains momentum, Pudgy Penguins aims to become the most familiar and trusted IP, resonating emotionally with users.

• Over the years, Phantom has surpassed MetaMask in user numbers, introducing more people to the crypto ecosystem. This validates the thesis that user experience is the bottleneck for industry growth.

• As an entrepreneur, you must choose your battles and understand your strengths and weaknesses. Facing the truth about your capabilities is crucial. Successful entrepreneurs need to focus on one area. Trying to excel at everything simultaneously is nearly impossible and destined to fail.

Current Stage of Cryptocurrency Development

Brandon Still Believes It’s a Great Time to Build Crypto Laura:

We are at a pivotal stage in cryptocurrency development, where the focus seems to be shifting heavily toward user adoption. Many major fintech companies, banks, and even multinational corporations are actively positioning themselves in the crypto space or exploring ways to enter the market.

At the same time, we are seeing crypto-native companies collaborating with traditional firms or gradually entering legacy financial sectors, such as payments.

Let’s start by taking a broader look at the evolution of cryptocurrency. How would you characterize the current stage? How does it differ from previous cycles or earlier phases? What are the new challenges for entrepreneurs today? Brandon, let’s hear your perspective first.

Brandon: I’m thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about Phantom and the latest developments in the crypto space. As a founder and entrepreneur in this industry, I believe this is an incredibly exciting time.

The rate of user adoption for cryptocurrency has recently surged, with almost daily news of fintech companies or traditional financial institutions like banks getting involved in some capacity. This phenomenon is the result of efforts across various developmental stages over the past few years. The industry has been heavily focused on building infrastructure.

From a technical standpoint, this includes optimizing blockchain speed and cost efficiency. From a developer’s perspective, we have been enhancing tools. From a regulatory angle, we have been working toward establishing more robust frameworks. These efforts have made the technology and application ecosystems of cryptocurrency much more mature. In past cycles, entrepreneurs were primarily tasked with deepening foundational infrastructure.

Today, these efforts are converging and creating explosive growth effects. Open and permissionless ecosystems possess strong network effects and compounding value growth dynamics, accelerating the pace of adoption. I believe we are beginning to witness this rapid growth effect unfold. That is my overall perspective on the current stage.

Luca Views the Current Moment as a Turning Point Luca: I see the current stage as a turning point for the crypto industry and a critical paradigm shift. When we evaluated the acquisition of Pudgy Penguins, my co-founders and I discussed this extensively. I told them, “In the crypto industry, the barriers to entrepreneurship are incredibly low, yet the potential to create billion-dollar companies is remarkably high.” This phenomenon was previously driven by storytelling and expectations for future potential. But now, this paradigm is changing.

More talented entrepreneurs are entering the space, and I believe the future will be an era where top entrepreneurs continue to dominate. We will see the effects of the power law becoming increasingly evident, where a select few exceptional entrepreneurs pull far ahead of the rest, intensifying competition to determine who truly stands out.

At the same time, I think the era of speculative hope is over. The entrepreneurial landscape is becoming more challenging. The previous model, where simply creating new asset classes and technologies could easily lead to value accumulation, no longer applies. The days when non-expert entrepreneurs could effortlessly build billion-dollar companies are over, and I think that is a good thing.

The focus now is on leveraging hyper-financialization and global payment networks, combined with global liquidity and composability, to truly build disruptive technologies that change the world, not just promoting narratives or stories without tangible action. I believe the future will be an era of result-driven success rather than speculation-driven success, and this is good for the industry.

Today, the doors to the crypto space are wide open. The opportunities have always been there, but not everyone could see them. Frankly, I did not previously realize the missing parts in the consumer crypto funnel.

However, if cryptocurrency is to achieve the mass adoption we have long anticipated, there are still issues to address. One of these is optimizing the consumer journey and driving widespread adoption of stablecoins. I believe stablecoins will become a popular medium of exchange, enabling everyday users to transact seamlessly through onchain applications. One of the biggest obstacles in the crypto user growth curve is the transition from zero to one.

Saran, if you are listening, I think Phantom has perhaps the best zero to one transition in the crypto space, especially within the Solana ecosystem. This represents a crucial paradigm shift. Stablecoins empower users to access onchain dollar-denominated assets to facilitate their consumption within applications.

Cryptocurrency is dominant in the realm of hyper-financialization, and in a world coexisting with AI, the power law will further manifest itself. Top entrepreneurs will become stronger, while those in the middle will seek new opportunities.

Within crypto’s onchain payment networks, there is no better opportunity for growth. I have also observed that top entrepreneurs from other industries are entering the crypto space and competing, which will further elevate the standards of the entire industry.

Personal Experiences: Challenges and Opportunities in Building Web3 Ventures

Laura: Before diving deeper into the roles of different market participants in the crypto space, I want to ask both of you a question. You have both made significant strides in expanding the influence of cryptocurrency and successfully attracted more users.

Could you share some personal experiences about how you achieved this and how your thought processes have evolved as the industry has moved into new phases?

Brandon: I started my career in the tech industry as part of Twitter’s early team from 2013 to 2017. During that time, I learned how to build large-scale internet applications for tens of millions to hundreds of millions of users.

Later, during the ICO white paper craze in 2017, I entered the crypto space and joined an early-stage DeFi startup called 0x. That experience gave me deep insights into DeFi concepts and allowed me to contribute to defining decentralized exchanges, which are widely used today.

During that journey, I realized the importance of user experience in driving crypto adoption and identified wallet design as one of the industry’s major bottlenecks. Wallets serve as the gateway for users entering the crypto space, determining whether they will sign up and complete transactions.

Recognizing this, we saw wallets as a critical point for driving industry growth and started conceptualizing Phantom. Initially, our goal was to create a competitor to MetaMask by offering users a better entry experience.

Fast forward a few years, and our user base has far surpassed MetaMask’s. More people are now accessing the crypto ecosystem through Phantom, validating our theory that user experience is the bottleneck for industry growth. By applying Web 2.0 principles to the crypto space, we uncovered numerous opportunities for improvement.

Looking ahead, I believe the infrastructure phase is complete, with users and capital already in place. The next step is to focus on delivering the best possible experience for users, earning their trust and business, and helping them manage their funds securely. This will define the next phase of the crypto industry.

Luca: I want to add that Phantom’s success story perfectly embodies the idea that the best product wins. You created the best wallet, and users naturally gravitated toward it, leading to breakthrough growth. When your product is far superior to competitors, especially in critical areas of the crypto experience, you achieve tremendous success. As a loyal Phantom user myself, I want to thank you for developing such an outstanding product.

For Pudgy Penguins, our product is the penguin characters and intellectual property, which differs from function-driven products. I recognized a problem in the crypto space: for many people, cryptocurrency feels intimidating and taboo.

So, what can break that taboo? The answer is adorable penguins. Our strategy focuses on attracting users through emotional connections rather than direct conversions. I aim to fill the emotional gap for consumers and establish deep connections with them. By creating multiple touchpoints and building trust, we either encourage users to explore crypto more deeply or guide them into the space.

Thus, our conversion strategy revolves around repeated consumer engagement and trust-building. As crypto momentum returns, I hope Pudgy Penguins becomes the most familiar and trusted IP that resonates emotionally with users.

Our marketing strategy is centered on touchpoints. Many people view our Walmart toy products as a revenue stream, which they are, but what excites me more is their marketing impact as touchpoints. Even when users turn off their computers or phones, we can still connect with them through these products.

I believe Pudgy Penguins can establish a cultural presence in the crypto industry, carving out a unique role. From this perspective, our strategy involves conveying messages and storytelling. Pudgy Penguins is the face of crypto, the mascot of the industry, and a representation of its “comeback story.”

Our goal is to connect with users wherever they are. Whether it is Google, Instagram, X, or other social networks, penguins are always visible. We aim to create something universally appealing, which is a byproduct of the IP we inherited or acquired.

One of our key objectives is engaging the entire family. If cryptocurrency is to achieve mass adoption, how can we ensure every family member participates and enjoys the crypto ecosystem?

From our perspective, IP plays a crucial role in this area. Pudgy Penguins excels at bringing together people from diverse backgrounds and psychological profiles. By combining these strategies, we have achieved the growth seen over the past few years, which is a direct result of these ideas.

Who Will Lead the Next Wave of Users into the Crypto Space?

Laura:

It’s clear that cryptocurrency is not a monolithic field. People can enter the crypto ecosystem through various channels. I believe several players might play significant roles or have the potential to become dominant in this space.

First, there’s Coinbase, which is massive but primarily caters to existing crypto users. Then there’s Robinhood, and of course, Stripe. X is evidently aiming to become a “super app.” They’ve partnered with Polymarket and explicitly stated this as their goal, which clearly competes with Base’s application direction.

Additionally, stablecoins are undoubtedly a crucial component of the next phase. Players like Tether, Circle, and newer entrants such as Ethena or emerging stablecoin chains like Stable Plasma are worth watching.

When you look at this market landscape, do you see any specific players having a particular advantage over others? Or how do you think this space will evolve?

I know this is a broad question, and we can dive deeper into specific market segments later. From a general perspective, how do you view the landscape?

Brandon: From a general standpoint, the current crypto space operates in a positive-sum environment. Every new entrant injects more energy into the ecosystem while driving the development of tools that make it easier for people to enter the crypto space. This is beneficial for the entire industry.

Personally, I believe now is the best time to enter the crypto space. As Luca mentioned earlier, we are at a pivotal turning point.

Looking at specific players, I think Stripe is a particularly noteworthy contender. The payments sector has long been considered one of the most promising application areas for crypto technology. Cross-border fund transfers, low-fee transactions, and instant settlements are just a few examples.

This area has not been fully developed in the U.S. market. While DeFi and NFTs have garnered more attention in recent years, I believe Stripe has the potential to make significant breakthroughs in the payments sector and bring substantial innovation to the entire crypto industry.

Another player worth watching is X, which boasts a massive user base. This includes not only active crypto users but also many everyday users who have never interacted with cryptocurrency. I think X has the potential to become a major gateway and introduce new users to the entire crypto ecosystem.

These two players, Stripe and X, are particularly interesting to me right now. We can delve deeper into their specific strategies later, but these are my initial thoughts.

Luca: I believe there are three players worth paying special attention to, two of which you have already mentioned, and one that might be less widely discussed.

First is USDC. If stablecoins become mainstream, USDC will undoubtedly hold a significant position. Its branding, trustworthiness, and naming framework are incredibly strong. If there is a winner in the stablecoin space, USDC is likely to be a frontrunner.

Second is Robinhood, which I see as a true dark horse. While Coinbase’s product has not fully lived up to expectations, and I say this as a loyal Coinbase user and supporter, Robinhood’s product team is exceptionally strong, possibly one of the best in the fintech space. Their product design is outstanding and resonates deeply with users.

As a heavy Robinhood user myself, I can say that it has seamlessly integrated into my daily financial life. If Robinhood successfully enters the on-chain space and launches high-quality products, I believe they could become a major player in the crypto sector.

Lastly, there is World Liberty Financial. They have adopted a theory similar to Anchor but without relying on high yields or exposing themselves to risks like Luna. Their product-market fit is genuine and effective. I think they have significant potential in the crypto space, particularly within the EVM ecosystem.

The Importance of Distribution and Why Luca Is Eager to Invest in Phantom

Luca: Additionally, Brandon, I believe Phantom deserves to be included in this discussion. If anyone is willing to sell their secondary market shares of Phantom, I would be very interested because I see tremendous value-capture potential in the middle-layer business.

By middle-layer, I mean the service layer that connects consumers to the blockchain. This layer effectively captures value while minimizing value leakage. Phantom has already proven its strengths, particularly in its ability to control user behavior, which allows them to flexibly launch any new, profit-generating business.

For example, if Phantom were to launch a token launcher, I think they have the potential to become a major player in the market, possibly even dominating it. The key to this model lies in controlling the user interface, as ultimate value tends to concentrate in teams that directly serve users.

From a broader perspective, the blockchain itself has relatively weak profitability, while middle-layer businesses are the true core profit centers. By optimizing the user interface, Phantom can provide users with a banking-like convenience while capturing potential value in areas like stablecoin payments. I am particularly excited about Phantom’s exploration in the stablecoin space.

Laura, if you feel we are drifting off-topic, feel free to redirect the discussion. However, I firmly believe the middle layer will be the most important and profitable business layer in the crypto space.

Phantom’s product has demonstrated extraordinary capabilities and is one of the best in the industry. If they decide to go public in the future and aim to increase revenue, I believe they can generate significant profit opportunities.

Additionally, I am curious whether Phantom has achieved profitability through perpetual contract trading. I believe they have, and this model is incredibly smart. Controlling the middle layer will be the most successful business model in the crypto space and the primary source of profit. This is why I am always willing to invest in Phantom or its team through secondary market opportunities.

Brandon: I believe controlling the end-user is the most important and strategically significant position in the crypto industry. This principle does not only apply to crypto but is also a core rule of internet development. Some of you or the audience may be familiar with Ben Thompson’s "Aggregation Theory."

Before the internet, the value chain structure was very different from what it is now. At that time, value was primarily concentrated in the hands of suppliers, such as retailers, newspapers, TV stations, and record companies, while distributors played a relatively weaker role.

The emergence of the internet changed this structure by redefining value distribution through an open, permissionless communication layer. Distribution became easier, while the infrastructure for supply was already in place. What truly matters now is controlling the distribution points and becoming the aggregation hub for user experiences. Phantom’s structure is similar to this.

Blockchain provides an open, permissionless way to create, store, and transfer internet value. This open structure enables global developers to deploy new projects and experiment with innovation. The distribution points, such as wallets and other user-facing applications, help users explore and use these services in a secure and user-friendly manner, gradually earning their trust.

This approach also allows us to launch diverse business lines, such as perpetual contract trading, which has recently become very important for us. Additionally, as Luca mentioned, we are considering other potential business lines, such as stablecoin payments. These explorations will further strengthen our advantages in the middle-layer business.

Who Might Win the Competition in the Payments Space and What Are Their Advantages?

Laura: Currently, the primary players in the payments space include Coinbase’s partnership with Shopify, Stripe’s Tempo, and several stablecoin chains such as Plasma and Staple. In my view, these are the main contenders in this area.

Of course, there are others, like PayPal, which launched its own stablecoin but hasn’t truly succeeded yet.

So, I’d like to ask your opinion on how you think this competition will unfold, which players might have stronger advantages, and what factors could determine the winners?

Brandon: I believe there’s another important contender: USDT. Especially in non-U.S. markets, it plays a significant role in payment scenarios.

Payment use cases can be divided into two main types: peer-to-peer payments, which involve direct transfers between individuals, and consumer-to-merchant payments, where users pay merchants for goods or services. These two types of payments have different demands and challenges.

For consumer-to-merchant payments, the biggest hurdle is whether merchants are willing to accept cryptocurrency payments. Many merchants are still unfamiliar with using crypto and prefer to receive payments directly in dollars. This has become the primary challenge for further development in the payments space.

I think Stripe has a distinct advantage in addressing this issue because of its extensive merchant distribution network. Beyond physical retail points, Stripe holds a massive market share in e-commerce, giving it unique competitiveness on the merchant side.

Laura: Then let me ask more directly: Even though Coinbase has partnered with Shopify, will the competition end as soon as Tempo launches?

Brandon: Absolutely not. I don’t think Tempo has even officially launched yet, and we don’t have a clear understanding of its actual performance. I believe the biggest winner in this space won’t emerge in the short term. It won’t be a case of one product launching and immediately dominating the market.

For now, merchant adoption remains the biggest challenge, and Stripe is likely the most promising player in solving this issue. Of course, there’s still a lot of work to be done on the consumer experience side.

For instance, as Luca mentioned, Phantom could serve as a critical entry point into the crypto space, especially in bringing stablecoins into the hands of users. So, I think Phantom might become a major player in this area in the coming years. However, overall, this competition will take time to fully play out.

In the U.S. market, the demand for peer-to-peer payments has essentially been met. Ordinary users find services like Venmo and Square Cash sufficiently convenient for this purpose. But in emerging markets, traditional payment infrastructure is often inadequate or even nonexistent. This is why USDT has been widely adopted in these markets, as its value proposition is particularly clear in these regions.

Therefore, I think in the U.S. market, consumer-to-merchant payments might develop first, as the value proposition is very clear to merchants. By adopting crypto payments, merchants can save on high fees charged by credit card networks while achieving more efficient fund flows through blockchain technology. This combination could genuinely drive progress in the payments space.

Luca: Laura, when you mentioned the success criteria for stablecoins, could you define them more clearly? Because I think this question can be answered from different perspectives.

If we look at it from the angle of new B2C users, the answer might differ. If we consider monthly or yearly stablecoin transaction volumes, the answer could change again. And if we focus on highest revenue, the answer might be different still.

I think I was primarily considering user growth and transaction volume dimensions at the time. But I agree that it should be divided into two distinct phases, as Brandon mentioned.

Personally, I think it might start with Stripe bringing stablecoins into users' hands and getting them accustomed to wallet operations. But eventually, I do believe people will begin using stablecoins for peer-to-peer payments. So, this could be a two-phase adoption process. If you could answer questions specific to these two phases, I’d be very interested.

The answer depends on the specific circumstances. I believe Stripe could be unbeatable if it manages to automatically convert all transactions into stablecoins. This approach is technically feasible and can bring revenue while enjoying other related benefits. If Stripe accomplishes this, it would be hard to surpass them in terms of transaction volume.

This is why I think either a team like Phantom or a new startup team will make breakthroughs in this area. I believe Phantom’s roadmap may already include similar plans.

For example, looking at the business models of PayPal, Square, and Zelle, if they could migrate these operations to blockchain payment rails, combined with wallet functionality and robust on-ramp and off-ramp solutions, this could be a $100 billion business opportunity. Blockchain technology would allow these applications to transcend borders, expanding their market share from the U.S. to anywhere in the world with internet access.

Does Solana's Seeker Phone Have a Chance to Break Through the Market?

Laura:

I know you mentioned earlier that you're not particularly interested in Stripe's topic. But while listening to you speak, I suddenly thought of Solana's Seeker phone.

This product is really intriguing; it is not only a hardware device but also functions as a hardware wallet, a smartphone, and integrates features like biometric technology.

I'm curious, do you think this represents a completely different approach? Perhaps a way to innovate and enter the market outside of traditional paths?

Luca: I think it does. However, whether it is a hardware product or any other type of product, to succeed in the market, it must be a better product or at least appear to be a better product. It has to be comparable to existing excellent products.

The challenge here is that, as a smartphone, it is very difficult to surpass the current giants like Apple and Android. Without top-tier talent joining the effort, it is hard to achieve a breakthrough. I believe the significance of Solana's Seeker phone might extend beyond the payments space we are discussing.

From a payments perspective, if the Seeker phone aims to directly compete with Phantom in the stablecoin payment arena, I think its chances are slim because it adds extra complexity for users. However, in other scenarios, hardware does hold unique value.

I think the Seeker phone could serve as an ecosystem product that supports multiple functionalities, not just limited to payments. For instance, it could enable broader crypto applications through blockchain technology, where Brandon’s Phantom is already leading the way.

That said, I believe the Seeker phone, as a holistic crypto hardware device, is a very meaningful attempt from a blockchain ecosystem standpoint. Blockchain technology needs better user interfaces, and hardware products represent an area that few have explored.

This attempt is bold and ambitious, and I support it. The product has many potential features that could enhance users' crypto experience. However, if we are only looking at its impact on stablecoin payments, it might be somewhat limited.

Brandon: Thank you, Luca. I largely agree with your points, especially regarding Phantom’s leading position in the market. As for the Seeker phone, I think the market logic for hardware and software is entirely different, particularly when it comes to economies of scale.

To me, directly competing with the iPhone does not seem like a wise strategy for the Seeker phone. I believe its goal should be to chart a completely new direction, and Solana indeed has its own advantages in this regard. They are well-funded and capable of driving their vision forward and leading industry development. So I think the Seeker phone is a great showcase of the potential of crypto technology.

However, I personally believe it will be challenging for it to truly compete directly with Apple and Android. That said, I do think the crypto space is in need of a hardware wallet revolution. Since Ledger became the dominant hardware wallet, there has not been a significant breakthrough in a long time. I am genuinely excited about the Seeker phone’s attempt in this area.

Perhaps we can circle back to our earlier discussion about a global peer-to-peer payments super app that leverages stablecoins to enable worldwide interaction and payments. In this area, PayPal and other traditional companies have consistently underperformed.

As we mentioned earlier, large publicly listed companies often face limitations in crypto innovation. They struggle to venture into cutting-edge areas for fear of jeopardizing their existing core businesses. This is not necessarily their fault; it is a structural limitation. These companies find it difficult to effectively drive crypto advancements.

On the other hand, many companies have tried to develop applications similar to Crypto Venmo or Crypto Square Cash, but these apps face a major challenge, the cold start problem. Payment behaviors are inherently social, involving transfers from one user to another, and both parties must use the same application. Starting from scratch in promoting such apps is incredibly difficult.

For example, if a new app tries to compete with Venmo, why would users choose this new app instead of continuing to use Venmo, which their friends and family already use? This is a very tough challenge to overcome.

Therefore, I believe the players who truly have a chance to enter this space might be those who already have a large user base. These companies have already established connections with end consumers and possess a broad user network, then build new businesses and applications on top of that foundation.

For instance, our team is currently in such a market position, and companies like Robinhood have similar advantages. This dynamic creates significant barriers for new players starting from zero.

How Robinhood Leverages Privy and Bridge to Dominate the Crypto Ecosystem

Laura: I believe crypto technology has partially addressed the cold start problem. For example, as long as blockchains are compatible, multiple wallet providers can support USDC on Ethereum or Tether on Tron. This does reduce the difficulty of adoption.

However, regarding stablecoins, I have one last question. I would like to hear your thoughts on Stripe’s acquisition of Privy and Bridge. How do you think these acquisitions will benefit Stripe, or how might they contribute to the adoption of stablecoins?

Brandon: I think Bridge is a key part of Stripe’s acquisitions. If Stripe wants to enter the stablecoin space, it needs the capability to issue stablecoins, and Bridge’s technology is perfectly suited for this.

Bridge’s core functionalities focus on two aspects: supporting stablecoin issuance and providing coordination and management for stablecoins.

Without Bridge, Stripe would have to develop these capabilities from scratch. By acquiring Bridge, they can quickly advance their product roadmap because they gain access to an excellent and efficient team. This provides Stripe with powerful technical support for stablecoin issuance, cross-chain transfers, and integration with bank accounts. It is undoubtedly a significant boost.

As for Privy, I think it is also a very interesting acquisition. Although it is not yet clear how Privy’s technology will integrate into Stripe’s overall architecture, one obvious application scenario is solving the problem of merchants accepting cryptocurrency payments. Many merchants are reluctant to accept cryptocurrencies because they are uncertain about how to store and manage these assets.

Privy’s wallet technology could help Stripe simplify this process, making it easier for merchants to accept cryptocurrency payments. So while I may have strayed slightly from the original question, it is clear that these acquisitions are part of Stripe’s core infrastructure. They will help Stripe achieve its plans more quickly. I am very optimistic about the potential of these acquisitions.

Luca: Brandon has provided a very comprehensive answer. However, I have a strategic idea I would like to share. As a fan of Phantom, I believe one of the key markers of your team’s success, Brandon, is the pre-installation of the Phantom app on smartphones. This is a major strategic breakthrough and should be a direction that requires full-time dedication. Getting the Phantom app pre-installed on smartphones, especially those in emerging markets, is crucial.

You do not need to directly target Android’s mainstream market because the scope of the Android market may be too broad. This is similar to YouTube’s early strategic breakthrough, where they started with smaller smartphone brands. Particularly in third-world markets, such as some mobile companies in Africa.

If Phantom can become a pre-installed app on these phones, it would represent a tremendous opportunity. You need someone dedicated full-time to driving this initiative. By doing so, you can expand your user base globally while fostering the development of the crypto ecosystem.

The Impact of the New Trading Wars on Robinhood, Coinbase, and Kraken

Laura: Although Phantom is not directly pre-installed on the Seeker phone, it is prominently recommended when I turn on the device. I recall it being one of the first apps I downloaded because the phone interface essentially guided me to install it. Now, let’s shift our discussion to trading.

I know this is a topic you might find interesting since it involves Robinhood. Trading is undoubtedly another major direction in the crypto space and one of the key factors driving the long-term growth of the industry.

Currently, we see two major players, Robinhood and Coinbase, entering the perpetual contracts space while also beginning to explore the derivatives market. Additionally, there are numerous attempts involving tokenized stocks or tokenized equities. This makes me curious.

When you observe these companies and their various efforts in this field, which company do you think holds the greatest advantage? Which products are likely to succeed, and which ones might struggle due to structural issues or insufficient promotional strategies?

Brandon: This topic is indeed broad and offers many angles for discussion. I believe, overall, trading behavior is undergoing a transformation with the changing times. In our parents’ generation, trading was considered a serious financial activity, typically carried out by professional institutions and rarely involving ordinary individuals. It was certainly not seen as a form of entertainment.

However, today, especially among the younger generation, we observe financial activities deeply merging with entertainment and the attention economy. This phenomenon is referred to as "hyper-financialization," where trading and other high-risk activities, such as sports betting, become increasingly accessible and gradually mainstream.

As a result, I think the form and purpose of trading are undergoing significant changes, evolving into something akin to entertainment or thrill-seeking behavior.

As for who is best suited for this trend, I believe the answer lies with companies that can win the trust and favor of the younger generation, as well as those where young people are willing to store and use their funds. Clearly, in the United States, Robinhood seems to occupy this position.

At the same time, we observe another trend: all financial activities are migrating on-chain. Therefore, I believe the real winners will be companies that can not only attract the next generation of users but also effectively adapt to the evolving on-chain environment. Robinhood has been very proactive in this regard, introducing its own blockchain and products like tokenized stocks. I am excited to see their progress in this area.

The companies that can capture the latest trends in on-chain finance, innovate with a "chain-first" approach, and seamlessly integrate with the attention economy of the new generation are likely to emerge as the biggest winners in this space. Of course, there are many different subfields within this domain.

Does Coinbase Lack a Strong Product Team?

Laura: You mentioned earlier that you are a big fan of Robinhood. So, if you were Coinbase, what steps would you take to challenge Robinhood in the trading arena?

Luca: Robinhood and Coinbase have very different product positioning. In fact, Coinbase has never been a company focused on product development. For instance, they recently attempted to launch an NFT marketplace and other projects, but these efforts did not yield the desired results. Additionally, Coinbase's product experience cannot compare to Robinhood's.

I agree with Brandon’s viewpoint that Coinbase should focus on becoming the “JP Morgan” of the crypto space. This positioning makes me more optimistic about Coinbase’s future, and they should pursue this direction wholeheartedly.

Product development is an organizational capability that takes years to cultivate and cannot simply be resolved by bringing in a talented team. Few companies manage to excel in this area, as it is typically shaped by corporate culture and leadership from the top down.

Coinbase’s strengths lie in the trading field. They have strong resource advantages, enabling them to negotiate favorable deals. Furthermore, they excel in brand reputation and their position as a market pioneer.

Instead of attempting to transform into a product-centric company, Coinbase should focus on its strengths, much like JP Morgan. I believe this is a very wise positioning, and it gives me confidence in Coinbase’s future.

Laura: So, do you think they should abandon Brian Armstrong’s vision, such as driving more people into the on-chain environment?

Do you think they should stick to a centralized model rather than trying to promote decentralization?

Luca: I believe they can foster innovation through acquisitions. If Coinbase wants to achieve its strategic goals, it should acquire teams that are developing products aligned with its vision. As someone who has been using Coinbase since 2016, I haven’t felt that their product experience is continuously improving.

In contrast, companies like FTX managed to capture the market because they provided U.S. users with a powerful platform for more sophisticated trading. Coinbase should have prevented FTX from taking market share, but they failed to do so.

Ideally, I think Coinbase’s strategic direction is correct, but their team may not be suited for this direction. From my observation, Coinbase does not seem like a product-focused company. Product development is a capability that takes years to nurture, and leaders need to have a product mindset.

I’m not sure if Brian Armstrong is such a leader. He seems more like someone skilled in strategic decision-making, driving transactions and business partnerships. However, if you look at Robinhood’s product, it truly reflects an excellent user experience.

For example, when executing certain functions on Coinbase, I often encounter cumbersome notification, verification, and approval processes. On Robinhood, performing the same functions has been seamless since they opened crypto deposits last year, including facial recognition and key verification. The user experience is much more friendly.

I believe great entrepreneurs need to confront their realities and understand what they excel at and what they don’t. If you’re not a product-focused person, you need to acquire teams that are building the products you need. Alternatively, you can embrace your positioning and focus on your strengths.

For instance, USDC and Coinbase’s trading operations are a great example, showcasing their advantages in the trading space. Coinbase is one of the most reputable and credible institutions in the U.S. crypto industry, and they can leverage this strength to generate value for shareholders.

Of course, building great products doesn’t just depend on individuals; it requires a strong team. I feel very fortunate to have an excellent team. Looking back years later, I realized how lucky I was to find the right people. Sometimes it’s just a matter of luck. But I don’t think a single person can drive product development, especially when you’re building Base (Coinbase’s blockchain ecosystem).

This is a complex ecosystem involving multiple layers, not just an application. While applications are an essential part of the ecosystem, it’s unrealistic to expect leaders to focus on product development every day.

In contrast, Robinhood is clearly a product-focused company. Their product team not only prioritizes user experience but can also quickly respond to market demands. This has been a key factor in Robinhood’s success in the crypto space.

Does the Concept of a "Super App" Truly Make Sense?

Laura: Recent attempts at creating "super apps" have sparked widespread discussion. Base might be one of the first platforms aiming to build such an ecosystem, while X claims they are also working toward this direction. I’m curious about your thoughts on these efforts.

Who do you think is most likely to succeed in this area? What key traits are required for a successful player in this field?

Brandon: I am skeptical about the concept of a "super app," especially as a competitive strategy. To succeed in this field, you need to be a large enterprise that already has a massive user base and strong distribution capabilities. Companies like X or Facebook, which have hundreds of millions or even billions of users, possess the resources and influence to potentially achieve this goal.

For companies starting from scratch, however, attempting to cover all areas simultaneously with a "super app" is usually impractical. Unless you have top-tier resources, this strategy will likely lead to failure. Therefore, I believe only companies with an established, large user base and the ability to drive global interactions have a chance at success in this domain.

Laura: So you don’t think the Base app could initiate this direction? They’ve already started but cannot compete with X or other existing social networks.

Brandon: I don’t think the Base app will become the next "super app." It’s an enormous challenge. As an entrepreneur, when you are a weaker competitor, you must carefully choose your battlefield and be clear about your strengths and weaknesses.

As Luca mentioned, you need to confront your reality and focus on what you excel at. Trying to compete in all areas simultaneously is simply not feasible. This is why it’s so difficult for a true "super app" to emerge in the West. In my view, iOS and the App Store might be the closest thing to a "super app" in the Western world.

In fact, the entire iPhone ecosystem, including the App Store and iOS system, might be the closest we have to a "super app." What is the essence of an app? I believe it lies in establishing a close connection with the end user. Apple has leveraged these user relationships to gain significant pricing power, as demonstrated in the App Store and Apple Pay.

In the East, the situation is different. For example, some companies backed by governments enjoy an unfair distribution advantage. In the West, I think only major players like Google or Facebook have the potential to succeed in this space.

Luca: I’ve mentioned a similar perspective when discussing blockchain, and I think it applies to the concept of "super apps" as well. We can return to the basics of entrepreneurship: successful entrepreneurs need to focus on one area. Trying to excel in everything at once is nearly impossible and is destined to fail.

Of course, there may be occasional lucky successes, but this "super" approach is generally a poor strategy. So, I don’t believe in the concept of "super apps." I’m more inclined to focus on functional platforms on-chain rather than attempting to cover all areas.

For example, Phantom’s product design is excellent. I believe these platforms should focus on providing on-chain functionalities rather than trying to encompass social and hundreds of other features simultaneously. That approach quickly becomes overly complex and difficult to manage.

I think the right strategy is to first find a core product-market fit (PMF) in one vertical area and then gradually expand functionalities, rather than launching a "super app" from the start without having a single core feature that truly attracts users.